Yorkshire NUM, repeated his call for Callaghan 10 go as leader of the Labour Calling for a change in the constitution to allow the party as a whole to elect Why has the Labour Co-ordinating Committee sponsored a resolution for this year's Labour Party conference censuring the Government?
I'm glad you say it's a motion censuring the government since some people have construed it in other ways.
It's not that the last government tried to implement Labour Party policy and failed, but essentially that it failed to try to implement that policy — in fact in some cases it strenuously sought not to do so. In my judgement and that of many others, this was one of the reasons why the government met with election defeat.
Not only had it lost a radical edge has historically been associated with Labour governments basic social democratic commitments to high public spending, or attempt to achieve full employment and defend the fabric of the welfare state.
Does the censure apply to all members of the government! I'm thinking of people like Tony Benn.
The wording of the censure also criticises some members of the National Executive Committee for not lighting effectively to defend elements of the party programme in the period prior to the election.
It is important to stress that there were some honourable exceptions to that situation. Some members of the NEC did not put up an effective fight, others did. since the defeat Benn has decided Malicipate in the Opposition Front Bench.
me people on the Labour left, such as Eric ler, have opposed this rove of it?
eila's decision is essentially for him, though I binkz I can understand why he deckied to do it.
It's Important nonetheless for people to ecognise the extent to which what happens to last Labour - which HEMISS - out l lanco to elsure cvel battalions NEC successive policy. not to neglect . you may have gala in Barnsley last week Arthur Scargill, President of the the left, so called, within the Labour Party -which I think is an area which extends much more to what has been called the centre of the 1S not exclusively related to the personal decisions of an individual.
I wonder who could be included in the left — the 'honourable exceptions' on the NEC that you talked about, who defended party policy during the last government? There was no real opposition to the right-wing of the order, for instance, of the Bevanite left in the '50s.
In the '50s, leading government members resigned over prescription charges. resigned from Callaghan's government, except Bob Cryer Manufacturing Co-op and one or two others. In generai, there was no real opposition. How do you account for that?
It's a false parallel between the "Bevanite opposition' during the '50s and the role of the NEC in the "70s.
Whereas in the '50s, we had an executive which was effectively dominated by the right of the party — in that instance by the big union -in '70s there conventional terms, a left It's very important, if you look at the kind of positions taken by the executive through conferences, that the criticised the government time and again, and asked for conference support for such criticism ot the government for not implementing party The key question is how it is that we can have a labour movement in which there is crucial respects for - conference decisions and in certain cases direct contempt for such decisions by a Labour government in office. That is a basic question of internal party •democracy, which itself is a basic question of political power.
The turning point in such a difference in the conference movement, and the parliamentary party and the late '5Us.
In the early drew Nobody detailed argument Kirby But office.
- called by the NEC.
was, in majority on the things are executive policy in general.
incomes policy.
Junc unions could no government said.
government came with the Gaitskelites from The post-war Labour government, example, discovered that the party draft to nationalise the coalmines was incredibly short. But Attlee didn't put the whole thing into a Royal Commission to consider whether or not there was a case for nationalisation, he simply instructed the relevant Minister to make sure that a detailed draft on how to nationalise the mines was put before the Cabinet.
'70s, on industrial policy, we up something like 150,000 words on the extension of the new forms of planning control, and industrial democracy.
disregarded, and in key respects it was gelded by the government in Yet there was no association with workers in struggle, no real action — demonstrations even You're right, of course, to say that there was criticism of government policy, but at best it was veiled and verbal. There is, surely, all the difference in the world between sharply critical resolutions — no matter how important such — and a serious opposition.
There was no opposition, for instance, to the Social Contract, which was the cornerstone of the wages policy and of the government's It's important to understand the way in which the Social Contract was initially framed, which was in opposition to the concept of a traditional experience of the '60s meant that longer rely on a Labour interpret was interests of the working class in general or the trade unions in particular.
In that context, the Social Contract was put forward as a means of avoiding a permanent incomes policy on the basis that in return for perceived and clear progress on key aspects of party policy, levels of recommended members.
public spending, democracy of and endemic to the conventional agreements on supposed to is open to question.
You the top monopolies.
and even in ine agreements, Do you think So what way forward does the Lat especially concerning the economy, the unions would negotiate certair recommended stress increases with the government which would be then be put to • That could have brought the unions into the area where they could demand the defence of ownership, the opening of the books of big extension business, and genuine forms of industrial It failed for reasons which are much wider labour movement than simply the activity of personalities within the NEC or the Parliamentary Labour Party.
With the honourable exceptions of Lucas Aerospace and the Vickers shop stewards, there is no extensive demand to move beyond the framework of wages and conditions as the defined and confined role of It's quite ironic that among those who pushed most strongly and clearly for planning big business, which were be process of tripartite negotiation, was David Basnett. In that sense. the conventional view of 'moderate' or 'centre Certainly, while militant demands for higher wages are necessary today, they are grossly inadequate to meet the depth of the crisis and to resolve it in the interests of the working class were associated with the National Enterprise Board, and in particular with the demand for the nationalisation of 20 to 25 ol What makes you think that this demand, for compulsory planning wouldn't have been sabotaged? such * demand could be implemented with a future Labour majority in It you launch what amounts to a ideological challenge, which in a sense we did, it
As part of our ongoing debate on the way forward for the labour movement after the election we spoke to Stuart Holland MP — one of the main ideologues of the Labour left. He is a member of the newly formed Labour Co-ordinating Committee, and author of the book entitled, perhaps ironically, The Socialist carry out conference decisions. 'If left offer, and what are its policies?
akes time both to make an impact anslate an intellectual agreement on the need or certain policy changes into an rasp that those changes are not only desirable ut necessary conditions for the defence of even onventional objectives such mployment, a high level of public spending, nd so forth.
What has been quite important, I think, has ten the fact that those policies did come into mainstream agenda of debate, discussion, nd struggle within the labour movement.
They are still on that agenda, and in this ense they have entered much more widely into foth people's perception and experience of the inds of economic and social problems they are This didn't mean that we expected that they overnment. in the Green Paper, on the Nat- COSTISHY adopted onal Enterprise Board, we stated clearly that here will be tremendous forces rient any extension of the public sector into PASIL Industr constructing role by the state for capital; so I on't think we're surprised in that respect.
i not convinced that there was any lack of thusiasm about nationalising 25 of the top sonopolies. There was massive support for the 073 Labour Party manifesto - certainly greater athusiasm than for any manifesto since the ame of the Atlee government.
But if we come onto the question mplementation of such a policy, ossible through leristation to take the top onopolies out of the bands of private owners.
The Attlee government, for example, found extremely difficult to nationalise the steel dustry because the steel bosses were prepared break the law and boycotted the institutions stablished by the government to effect the ationalisation, to open the books, and so on.
Trade unions may have won a legitimate ple in society, but hest are such policies to be implemented if workers are not to control the conomy and rule in society?
and to intuitive delighted that there was.
What I'm full trade unionists initiatives. working class The crisis tending to the 50 years.
of how is it working people themselves.
It's Important Challenge.
I didn't say there wasn't major interest in the policies in the early "70s, and I was obviously saying is that the kind of appreciation of the policies was not so extensive that they entered into the automatic reaction of to government policy The question of how is it possible to implement radical policies is very open-ended.
One of the striking things it seems to me in relation to some groups on the ultra-left is that for 30 years or more they have been talking about the impending crisis of the system, they have also been arguing that in such a crisis there would be a spontaneous mobilisation of the in order to smash the state apparatus and transform state power.
has but the r transformation has not happened What's important is less to refer back te Attlee's difficulties in nationalising steel which was attempted until very 1945-51 government — than to draw attention to what can now be done by the Labour Party and the trade union movement in the face of one of the most reactionary and class divisive Conservative governments that we've seen for It's important to realise the extent to which the intensification of the general crisis on a global scale, which will be aggravated in Britain by Conservative measures of public expenditure cuts and so forth, will highlight for movement the question of simply whether we oppose the Conservatives, but what we actually do as an alternative.
I'm not saying that the conference hall itself is the ante-chamber to socialism — it's not. If there is to be change then it has to be part of a process of perception, reaction, and action b nonetheless to stress that unless you have a relatively specific strategy for dealing with particular kinds of change within society, then basically you are thrust back purely on spontaneity, and in a spontaneous situation people may spontaneously react in a reactionary rather progressively.
What role can the Labour left play in achieving the 'action' that you talk about?
the trade anton leadership having swung to the right since the carty "70s-and they will dominate polley decistons at the Labour Party conference Labour left to go directly to mobilise around its policies?
The labour left has derived its strength in many it not parties and from the trade union base.
It's extremely important that the maximum feasible campaign should be undertaken within the labour movement to show that this crisis cannot be resolved either simply on the wages front or by passing resolutions at conference.
In that sense reference of the debate beyond wage bargaining and opposition to the re-introduction of wage: policy. We also must move beyond a defence of welfare statism or the assumption that with sufficient appeasement of restore full employment and economic welfare.
The scale of the crisis on embarked is greater in one sense than that in the 1930s, which was one of underconsumption, where state spending essentially on armaments contributed to the recreation of employment.
The today disproportionality -industres between between advanced and declining industry, regions deprivation and decline, and between social groups and classes.
These forms of the consequence of the post-war boom itself, since capitalism is inherently unequal and uneven in structural, and spatial Therefore, unless we think now in terms of than react - is there a seet for the , the ranks to beyond full constituency extension society.
we must move the terms of labour movement?
capital Party while it may be one's own which we've LCIU Parts strength major between big and small democratic with inner city exclusive channel. crisis are the distribution.
chloe Chall extending our analysis of this crisis into an alternative socialised mode of development, then there is little chance of making progress in the latter part of the century With vast technological unemployment or the horizon in the form of the micro-chip, but also upon us already in certain crucial areas, we must both reduce the working week and also question the whole role of work in society.
And that really implies moving beyond the question of the means of intervention into the economy to the end for which that intervention is directed; a social bill of goods and services and X-hou working week to one of useful employment and individual freedom transcending the form of alienation in capitalist In one sense socialism was never more clearly on the agenda than it is in this country and some others in Western Europe today.
What sort of left should we be building in the First and foremost, one not only within the labour movement but also within the Labour It has been argued for half a century that less compromising to form untouched by the compromises of others, it is clear to me that the the instrument for major change, but also its commitment to . democratic institutions is a desirable one Nonetheless it. is also important in society Dullics should be genuinely plural, and both within the Labou Party and without there seem to me advantage to such a plurality of groupings rather than an But iif the left is to gain strength from diversity, it also must be able to reinforce agreement rather than difference. we risk ritual protest against adversity E than common strength against our adver
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At a miners' Party.
its leader, he said that any new leader this is done l am certain that the next le
ppose the Conservatives, terview with Stuart Holland, MP